Discovery 2x04: An Obol for Charon

[rivendellrose]

Here is your belated discussion post for Discovery 2x04: "An Obol for Charon." Apologies for the delay, I was out all afternoon/evening yesterday and forgot to create the post before I left!

I haven't seen the episode yet (alas!), so you're on you're own for discussion. Enjoy!

Comments

[adriennefae]

I really liked this episode. The universal translator malfunction and the resolution to the sphere plot were very 'Star Trek.' While I never thought they were actually going to permanently kill Saru, that storyline mostly worked for me and that scene with him and Michael where he wanted her to cut off his ganglia really got to me. The one issue I had was that some of that might have worked even better if we'd seen more of their interaction on the Shenzhou, since most of what we saw between them on the Discovery was the not-so-good aspects of their relationship from what I remember. I also initially wasn't sure about the fact that the end of the episode seemed to change a major part of his personality in a way that didn't seem like normal character development, but I do want to see where it goes for him and for the other Kelpiens as I think we'll see them at some point.

I also love Stamets and his/Tilly's/Reno's/May's storyline in this episode. I love that Reno was back. That line Stamets had where he told Tilly she's a better friend than she realizes was really sweet. What would Culber say if he knew they drilled a hole in Tilly's head with an actual drill... And May/the fungus turned out to have something important to say which is presumably going to be the reason no one is using spore drives in the 24th century. And that storyline is going to be continuing next episode, with Tilly being trapped somewhere along with her.

And it looks like Mirror Georgiou is going to be in the next episode too. I'm really looking forward to it.

[gatheringrivers]

The universal translator malfunction in this episode must be why Saru mentioned he learned 94 languages in one of the last two eps. I had a feeling that would be coming into play, and I loved that he was basically a walking universal translator for part of the ep. :)

[kore]

ITA! It felt very Trek to me -- the focus on alien civilizations, communication, bridging the gulf, and Starfleet as a force for good.

I COULD WATCH STAMETS AND RENO SNARKING AT EACH OTHER ALL DAY, omg. And then when they and Tilly all work together! This ep was full of that, and I loved it. They're integrating the bridge crew nicely into the action too. I think it helps Lorca is no longer such a main focus.

[jazzfic]

Everyone's really being put through the ringer, gosh. I feel for Michael. Those shoulders are strong but they can't hold up the galaxy. I almost - almost - thought that was the end for Saru, and the images we've yet to see from the trailers was going to be a flashing before his eyes sort of thing. Thank goodness it wasn't.

I hope we see Number One again.

(Also, if by the end of the next episode Spock's still somehow just out of reach, I don't know... That's really being dragged out!)

[kore]

I was all psyched up for MY GIRL NUMBER ONE, and....she just has a lousy little lunch with Pike! Boo. Loved the actress's look and self-confidence, though, she was a great match for the original.

[tree_and_leaf]

Well, this was fun! I agree that the scene in Saru's quarters was a little long - but they actually made me wonder if he was going to die, so points for that!

[sysann]

Awww, I loved every bit of Michael & Saru, even if I found the music a little over the top. But I like seeing their friendship continue to grow. - It's been a little absent in the last couple of eps with the focus on Pike & Michael befriending each other. --- Also, the ganglia being responsible for the fear it can warn Kelpiens of is interesting. I just hope he doesn't get overly rash as a result of not being governed by his fears anymore. But it should certainly help him as a Captain, once he's fine tuned it a little. Being overly cautious doesn't seem helpful to someone exploring new worlds and civilizations. - Michael trying to force herself to asisst Saru's suicide... woah. People need to give Michael hugs. Lots of hugs. (Saru, too. And Tilly. And Paul. And... no, I think that's the main ones at the moment.)

Loved the Babel plot. I'm always thrilled by different languages, it was just a little bit of a shame that they could resolve it so quickly. But yay for Saru getting to use his linguistic skills. - And I loved the resolution.

Also... Tilly, Stamets & Reno! Wow. That's a recipe for disaster. But hey, it looks like they've found a way to add Reno to the cast for good, haven't they? If we don't get the spore drive anymore, we definitely need a good engineer? - I do hope that doesn't mean that we'll lose Paul and Hugh by the time we get Hugh back.

I mean, we do have an awesome new Doctor in Dr. Pollard and if Reno's the one needed as engineer.... they probably could justify taking some time off after everything they've been through. And they'd deserve it. But I would miss them a lot. :(

Anyway. Hope they get to rescue Tilly! --- And awwww, Tilly and Paul singing Space Oddity with him singing "Tell my wife I love her very much" / And Tilly "She knows". (I continue to love their friendship. Much as with Saru & Michael above.)

Also... is it time to start calling this season "the search for Mr. Spock"?

[kore]

Between Michael and Saru, and Tilly and Stamets, I was a giant mess. I was surprised, I haven't felt that emotionally invested in the eps lately.

[sysann]

I'm glad you were a mess about it too. It's good to be emotionally involved with all this. Far more fun to suffer through an emotional rollercoaster than to just sit there and check your watch to see when it's time to get on with real life.

[mr_picard]

I finally found the mood to watch the episode this morning and I really enjoyed it. It was nice to not have the camera upside down and flying all around all the time (what IS it with them doing that???) and the entire thing just felt like a good TNG episode somehow, and I'm definitely here for that. I wish they made more episodes like this one.

Also, they gave Pike the German line on the bridge. AAAAAAAAH. I flailed. Heh. (I'm German. So, yeah.)

tl;dr: More episodes like this, please!

[mekare]

Haha I noticed that too. I agree it felt like a TnG episode, just more fast paced.

[garpu]

Spoilers OK? I've got a question about a plot point or plot hole.

[rivendellrose]

Yup, spoilers within comments on episode posts are totally okay!

[garpu]

Okie! :)

[garpu]

So one thing I missed or didn't get: How come no Kelpien survived what Saru did, but he was allegedly fine afterwards? Were they culled before their ganglia fell off? Were the insane ones just ones who figured out it was all a lie?

[rivendellrose]

I took the implication here to be that no one actually has survived due to culling / harvest by the predator species whose name I keep not quite catching -- Ba'ul? Something like that? My brain keeps interpreting it as Goa'uld (Thanks Stargate!) so I can't seem to catch it for real.

Basically, my assumption is that someone made up the lie that Kelpiens would just go crazy and die of horrible misery if they weren't culled, because that was probably a pretty convenient way to make sure that the Kelpiens would go ahead and submit to the cull. And now, probably thousands of years later, here we are, with the lie being accepted as truth because why wouldn't they believe what they've always heard about their own biology.

Whether it was the Ba'ul or whoever who made up this lie or if it in fact was some Kelpien who came up with it remains to be seen.

(Fair warning: I have been very far off on some of my guesses about Kelpien society in the past. This feels pretty solid to me from standard Star Trek plot structure, but it's still a total guess.)

[garpu]

That's kind of what I was wondering, or if it was stated, and I missed it. I wonder if Saru will have his own little betrayal of Georgiou and find some way to contact his home about it.

[rivendellrose]

Yeah, that's my guess -- at the end there he was sounding very much as if he might go back to his world to let his people know that they've been fooled and (presumably) attempt to start a rebellion of some kind against the culling. It'll be interesting to see if it's played as treason (it is against her order, of course, and technically against the Prime Directive) or as entirely justifiable (because, well... they're being murdered under false pretenses).

[garpu]

Yeah, I mean, the Prime Directive has always struck me as a bit silly. A culture can know there are other species out there, know that there's other worlds besides their own, but not have the technology to visit those worlds. Or what about worlds that skipped over warp technology and use something else? And then it, like the first Law of Time in Doctor Who, winds up doing more harm than good when something may need intervention.

IMO, Saru finding a way to help his people is no different than the Discovery saving New Eden.

[rivendellrose]

There's a sense in which I agree with it (basically, don't go running around changing other cultures willy-nilly, and definitely don't go colonizing/oppressing them for your own gain!), but there's another sense in which, as you say, it can start to get pretty ridiculous. As well as more honored in the breach than the observance. :P

I'd have to agree with you on that, and I suspect Pike will see it that way as well.

[garpu]

And with the Ba'ul, who's to say the Prime Directive hasn't already been broken?

[rivendellrose]

Yeah, that's a wrinkle that I think they've slightly forgotten (or at least haven't come to yet). It looked from the short episode a while back like the Ba'ul were significantly more technologically advanced than the Kelpiens, so if they're preying on this less advanced species, isn't it within Starfleet regs to stop that? Or does the fact that the two species (if I'm remembering correctly) are both native to this world negate that? That's a gray area I've never totally been clear on.

[nenya_kanadka]

I am curious about this as well! It wasn't clear if the Ba'ul (side note: rivendellrose, I keep making the Ba'ul --> Ba'al --> Goa'uld connection too :D) were a) an alien-to-Kaminar species or b) a predator species native to the same planet.

If it's the first one, they've already been fucked with by an outside power, and it seems wrong for the Federation to know that that's happening and not do anything to help. There are totally problems with an outside power swanning in and going "We'll fix everything!" especially if the reason they're actually there is selfish (for resources or something, for example). But at the same time...it doesn't seem right to just leave that to happen. It's not like a predator/prey cycle among animals, because the Kelpiens are people just as much as the Ba'ul are.

Of course, then there's my theory that the Ba'ul are Kelpiens: Kelpiens after the ganglia fall off. What if they go from being afraid of everything to being a lot more aggressive?

That would be...even more complicated. I guess we'll see which way it shakes out, because I do get the impression that Saru wants to go back to his planet (and it seems like a dangling plot thread if he doesn't get to on the show).

[rivendellrose]

Oh, thank goodness, I'm glad it's not just me. XD

Of course, then there's my theory that the Ba'ul are Kelpiens: Kelpiens after the ganglia fall off. What if they go from being afraid of everything to being a lot more aggressive?

I've been wondering about that, too. It might (would probably?) mean that the "culling" wasn't actually killing the Kelpiens who were taken, but rather uplifting them into this other society or doing... something unknown with the ones who don't take to that, and I sort of think that's a cop out in that the entire premise of Kelpien society from word one has been that they're a prey species and there's a predator species as well. But this would be a typical Star Trek turnaround, and it would fit in with the weird low unpleasant note that appeared in the music when Saru talked about feeling powerful.

I feel 100% confident we'll be going back to Kaminar this season either way -- I'm pretty sure we saw Saru's sister in the season trailer. How soon and what it will lead to... that's another question.

[kore]

Yeah, I dunno if the other little short films were also setups, but we've gotten a lot of seeding re Saru and his home planet and sister so far.

[kore]

Yeek. Yeah, that moment with Saru realizing his whole species has been lied to and betrayed, it seemed like he was very close to going back there and telling the truth. (And who could blame him.) I hope he doesn't get all ragey and whatever, although they do seem to be doing a pon farr parallel.

[mekare]

What an episode! Fast paced, emotionally punching me to the limit and turning everything around at the last minute!

So so many Saru feeeeeels!!!!! I am relieved and excited about his upcoming journey! Free the Kelpians! I adored the acknowledgement of the Michael Saru bond.

Jett Reno and Stamets clashing was great, and I loved how tender Stamets was with Tilly. (Poor Tilly! OMG.)

I really liked the idea of the 100.000 year old spere and I bet they'll find something to help with the mysterious angel phenomenon.

Also, yay Number One!

ETA: thr languages! So Star Trek and I enjoyed hearing them immensely.