Discovery 1x08: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

[rivendellrose]

Here is your discussion post for episode 1x08!

Please be aware that there will be spoilery comments on this entry. As before, I'll be back later this evening to join in the party once I've had a chance to watch the episode, and if the conversation hasn't gotten too far without me I will add some discussion starters or other remarks behind a cut.



I dunno, guys. This episode... did not really work for me. I've been trying to be super positive in general, and I don't want to harsh on anybody else's parade if they enjoyed it, but... this one was not my thing.

A few attempts at questions:

- When he emerges from the spore drive early on in this episode, Stamets calls Tilly "Captain." Do you think he's getting generally disoriented by the spore drive, having a hard time identifying people, or maybe getting further unmoored in time and somehow popping forward into a future where Tilly is a captain?

- As with the last episode, this one fits into a grand Star Trek tradition, this time of energy beings or non-corporeal lifeforms. How do you think the Pahvans and this episode in general fit in with this trope?

- Apparently Burnham expects Starfleet to just return her to prison to keep serving her life sentence after the war is ended. What do you think of that and how it fits with Federation philosophy?

- What do you think of L'Rell's story arc and how her plan turned out? Does it maybe seem as if (she asked, not injecting her own opinion at all...) L'Rell maybe could have just made a bit more of an effort to be stealthy and pretend that Admiral Kat was still her prisoner and avoided all of that shit where her plan fell totally to pieces?

- Correct me if I'm wrong, but at the end it seemed like Kol accepted L'Rell into his house because he would need an interrogator in the future, but then said he'd figured out her plan the whole time and decided that she was a traitor and told his dudes to beat her up or possibly kill her? Why... why would he accept her first?

Enjoy, and I'll see you on the other side!

[updated because apparently I can't count?]

Comments

[saturnofthemoon]

*sniffles* Well, at least I was prepared for that thing to happen. It just seemed so random and pointless.

[rivendellrose]

It was super frickin' random and pointless, and up to the last minute I was still (and in fact I still am a bit?) unclear whether it was final? Like... I don't know, I kept sort of expecting it to be Part of L'Rell's Plan, because apparently I've been working under the false assumption that she was the competent, plan-making Klingon when actually she's the one who thinks it's a good idea to defect by strolling through the halls of a ship controlled by a guy who hates her, not even pretending that the person accompanying her is still her prisoner. WTF, L'Rell? I had you down as the smart one, and this is how you go about things?

[saturnofthemoon]

There’s some chance it was all a ruse and Cornwell isn’t actually dead, but on a show that has zero compulsions about killing off characters it not likely.

Huh, they’re dropping some weird hints on Aftertrek.

[rivendellrose]

I'm not a big fan of non-corporeal entity episodes to begin with, but ironically this time the plot with the non-corporeal entity turned out to be my favorite plot of the episode, apart from the brief C-line with Tilly trying to figure out why Stamets has reverted from Groovy Shroom Stamets to Grumpy Hates-Everyone Stamets. I liked the insight into Saru's character, the planet was cool-looking, and it was nice to let Burnham and Tyler let their hair down (so to speak) for a little while.

And then there was the B-plot.

Look, I'm biased in that I already tend to dislike the Klingon plots in DSC, but L'Rell has tended in the past to be my favorite of the bunch. Her outfit is a little weird, but I've generally taken her to be the brains of the operation, and Mary Chieffo seems, of all the Klingon actors, to do the best at speaking and emoting around the ridiculously immobile makeup and the tooth prosthetics and the contact lenses and the non-native language. Good on her. Plus, she reminds me of characters like Grilka and Sirella, and those are fond memories for me. I've always doubted her taste in men, but, hey, nobody's perfect. And I totally bought her deciding to defect (although I have some Thoughts there about her motives as regards my adherence to a certain theory about Voq's current whereabouts).

What made me facepalm ENDLESSLY about this episode is that apparently L'Rell is apparently not smart enough to not just waltz through the halls of what is effectively at this point an enemy ship with her "prisoner" unencumbered and free to walk at her side. And when she's confronted she doesn't think quickly and come up with an excuse, or even fight the morons who caught her, or even try to run. She just... gives up and kills her one ticket out of this brave new Klingon empire run by Kol, who she hates and who hates her even more. Uhhhhhhhhh....

AND THEN, when she's dragged Admiral Kat's body to the... whatever, where the bodies go before they go outside on the ship's hull, I guess, she sees... apparently friends of hers! And she says they'll be avenged! So she goes back to... swear allegiance to Kol, so she's back to thinking she can play a deceptive game. Okay? But then after she swears allegiance and he accepts her into her house, Kol is all "I see through you and you're a traitor so I'm going to have my dudes haul you away!" or something I don't know I was kind of losing track of things at that point because nothing was quite making sense to my mind.

So... is L'Rell dead now? Is Kat maybe still alive and it really was all part of some very deep ruse that L'Rell was running? Was I the only one who found this episode more than a bit wobbly?

[kore]

Those are all very good points. I think in general, the Klingon plots on this show just tend not to be that good. I'm fairly annoyed at L'Rell apparently being stupider than a sack of hammers, unless it really is some kind of long con. I was enjoying her and Admiral Kat sort-of bonding. :-/

[kore]

IF ADMIRAL KAT IS DEAD THIS SHOW IS ON NOTICE.

(Husband thinks she is not dead. I am not betting on it.)

[rivendellrose]

I don't even know. I'm 50/50 on whether Kat is actually dead or if L'Rell is going to prove to have been more competent and clever than she appeared in this episode and it's all been a ploy and Kat is still alive.

Or another option that my crack-theory-magnet husband found on the internet, whereby Kat is actually dead but L'Rell assumes her identity via the same process that (we theorize) she gave Voq Tyler's. I find this one unlikely, but it's... not like it doesn't have some theoretical precedent here.

[kore]

I personally think Stamets is coming unmoored in time, maybe, because of that first scene with the mirror when his reflection was a bit later than he was. It didn't do anything different, it was just delayed. Or they could be setting up a Mirror Universe thing.

The Pahvans....ehh. I guess it was IC for them, having never really met anyone, but they seemed to veer wildly between sweetness and light and PUNCHY PUNCHY. Also, I know everyone loves Saru, and that includes me, but he was completely out of line and he has way too much animosity toward Burnham and he should at the least be put on leave, or something. Of course, probably Lorca wants him around because he thinks he has a lever there, same way he does with Ash and Burnham. (Speaking of Lorca his Bad Dad routine with the bridge crew during the opening battle was painful. They're so cowed.)

I don't think we heard Burnham's sentence was commuted or anything, and didn't the position get offered as a provisional one? I guess in the best case it might be seen as good behaviour parole, but I'm not surprised she thinks she's just going to get tossed back into gen pop. She lost everything and everyone and nobody defended her IIRC and she was alone for a while before Lorca deliberately picked her up. I think Lorca really wouldn't ever let her go, but if he dies all bets may be off. We also haven't seen how well she may be fitting in with the new crew, apart from her roomie and love interest.

The Klingon plotline was just a mess. L'Rell wound up looking absolutely stupid, which I'm pretty sure was not their intent.

The whole ep sort of ranged from meh to OK -- it didn't seem rushed, but maybe....sketchy? Like they were trying to tell a bigger story and didn't have room for it. It wasn't terrible, but after the excellence of last week, the contrast was not good. (And just one more ep to go? Boo....)

[ironed_orchid]

I think they were trying to fit too many plot threads into one episode and it fell flat.

[rivendellrose]

I guess I always assumed that if she managed to make significant contributions to ending the war then there'd be a fair chance that Burnham's sentence would be commuted basically on account of extreme community service. It would be odd if she'd assumed that, though!

Speaking of Lorca his Bad Dad routine with the bridge crew during the opening battle was painful. They're so cowed.

It's weird and uncomfortable, isn't it? It's not like we've never seen a captain putting a lot of pressure on their bridge crew, but this is... different.

L'Rell... whoooo boy. If their intention wasn't to make her look like a complete moron, boy did they fall down on that one.

[lizbee]

(Speaking of Lorca his Bad Dad routine with the bridge crew during the opening battle was painful. They're so cowed.)

It's a nice example of telling and showing -- I thought quite early on that his whole "broadcast distress signals to the whole crew" was going to cause a lot of unnecessary stress, then Cornwell accused him of pushing them too hard, and now this. He's a good strategist, and his crew are incredibly well-trained, but he's incredibly douchey compared with other Starfleet captains we've seen.

Basically, he's an Ask A Manager letter in a Starfleet uniform.

(A friend compared him to Captain Bligh, so I hope his next posting is as military governor of a really shit colony and then Harry Mudd turns up to start a rum-based economy.)

I guess in the best case it might be seen as good behaviour parole, but I'm not surprised she thinks she's just going to get tossed back into gen pop.

I wouldn't be shocked if Lorca has made arrangements for her eventual parole/pardon/however it works and just ... hasn't bothered to mention it to her. Lorca's gonna Lorca, and he knows that, for Michael, service alone is enough of a motivation. (And maybe it suits him to have her thinking she'd be best off sacrificing her life for the cause.)

[lizbee]

*dons tin hat*

Okay, for now, this is my official position on the state of Admiral Cornwell.

Actual reasons, which may or may not be wishful thinking:

- it didn't seem like L'Rell slammed her head hard enough to kill her instantly (I did just read a crime novel where that was the murder method, but it took several hours and no medical treatment for the victim to die)
- just a weird amount of emphasis on Cornwell's body, which might just be the show signalling a farewell to a character who apparently became popular very quickly, BUT...
- I had to sit through an entire episode of After Trek, which was excruciating, but it's notable that Jayne Brook was talking about Cornwell as if she's still involved with the series, and may have actually forgotten she "died"
- also the host refers to Cornwell's "dead or maybe dead" body
- look, the important thing is that she's probably not gonna be eaten

Otherwise, I feel like the A plot kind of embodied the weakest aspects of Kirsten Beyers' Voyager novels -- ideas which are very Star Trek, but are almost too thin to generate much of a story. But it also contained one of her strengths, which is women having a professional rapport.

Oh, the other interesting thing that came out of After Trek was clarification re: Kol and L'Rell, that he offered her a place in his house before turning on her because he's all about power, manipulation and humiliation. But I think that maybe could have stood to be a bit more clear, you know?

L'Rell's motivations ... I don't even know, man. I assume she wants to get to Discovery for Voq -- maybe Ash someone needs to receive a code to activate their Klingon programming. But her whole plan is shabby, to the point where it's Cornwell who knows what to do when Kol catches them.

[kore]

look, the important thing is that she's probably not gonna be eaten

//cries

[rivendellrose]

L'Rell's motivations ... I don't even know, man. I assume she wants to get to Discovery for Voq -- maybe Ash someone needs to receive a code to activate their Klingon programming. But her whole plan is shabby, to the point where it's Cornwell who knows what to do when Kol catches them.

Yeah, that's another weird thing, right? If we go with the assumption that Ash is Voq and he's a sleeper agent and he is totally unaware that he's actually Voq (which I have been, because it seems like the best explanation for a lot of things), it raises questions about what their actual plan regarding his fake identity was. I had assumed that L'Rell was faking her upset when he left, but this is starting to make it look like she wasn't. Like she... wasn't ready for him to leave, or was having doubts, and then he got away and now she's like "well, shit, I never set up how to reactivate the real personality." Which is a serious flaw in a sleeper agent plan! You have to set this kind of shit up in advance, L'Rell! Otherwise of course your stupid albino boyfriend is going to get chased away out of your reach because that's not who he is anymore.

[nenya_kanadka]

Well fuck. Your icon. How is it that a simple shot of a Starfleet insignia badge* can give me SO MANY FEELINGS?

Goddammit.

<3



*[fights urge to call it a comm badge]

[nenya_kanadka]

Yeah I too am thinking that that slightly-long shot of Cornwell's flat-on-the-floor body at the end there was a pretty strong "aten't ded" hint. Like--there are no major visible injuries, no big pool of blood under her head, etc. She could just be unconscious! I seriously half-expected her to blink or twitch there.

So. She ain't dead till I see more.

I kind of assumed that L'Rell might not be telling the truth when she said she wanted to defect, like maybe she just wants to get onto Disco either to fuck shit up for them generally or to find Ash/Voq. I guess that is my running assumption now. BUT now she's in Kol's dungeons SO.

Michael saves all the distressed female costars next episode, y/y???

[mr_picard]

I didn't care that much for this episode... probably because there wasn't enough Lorca for my taste. I loved the opening scene, though. Hey, I like Lorca in command

Nah, really... I liked that they tried to show us more about Saru, but I wish they hadn't had yet another generic "energy lifeform" plot and "doesn't register as a lifeform" lines... it's just... well we've HAD all that before, and I enjoy Discovery the most when it's very much UNlike previous Trek series.

I also doubt Cornwell is dead. L'Rell is a walking plot twist. That being said, L'Rell is also the only Klingon I care for on this show, lol.

I liked the Stamets parts of this episode, very much, because I like Stamets in general - but I wish they hadn't cut the Culber/Stamets scene. (Wilson Cruz mentioned this on Twitter.)

All in all... I hope the next episode is better. I do realize this one was supposed to set up the plot for the next one... maybe that's why I feel somewhat... meh about it. Maybe I'll like it better once I know just WHAT kind of plot it sets up.

[rivendellrose]

Oh no, they cut a Culber/Stamets scene?! God damn it, people! That's not okay, I've been waiting for more of them for weeks, and they could've kept it if they'd spent a little less time lingering lovingly on dead Klingon bodies and blue leaves!

[anon001]

Aww, so sorry to learn this. :((( I just hope that they'll show it somewhere in a deleted scenes bundle or something.

[lizbee]

I wish they hadn't cut the Culber/Stamets scene. (Wilson Cruz mentioned this on Twitter.)

Agreed. There was also more dialogue between L'Rell and Cornwell that didn't make it -- way too much happening in this episode, I think.

[anon001]

Wait... when/where they aired the 1x09? I thought that the episode of this week was 1x08?

[rivendellrose]

Sorry, apparently I can't count. This is indeed 1x08.

[tree_and_leaf]

I mostly liked it - I really liked the planet - and am refusing to believe that Kat is actually dead.

L'Rell is up to something (and I buy the theory that she's trying to get to Discovery to activate Ash's sleeper personality and he'll turn out to be Voq) - but I think she faked Kat's death and I am clinging on to that theory until proven otherwise.

[tree_and_leaf]

I mean, I see what everyone's saying above about energy beings being over done in Star Trek, and you're not wrong or anything - but it just felt really nicely realised, and I liked Saru being unable to cope with the noise (which possibly also explains his terrible choices, come to think of it, he's basically had an entire day of sensory torture on top of all his other issues).

[monanotlisa]

Oh, man, I'll have to weigh in tomorrow...11pm here again in the Bay. But, yay! :)