Cultural readings of Star Trek: Discovery?

[monanotlisa]

I was watching The Vulcan Hello with two friends, and after I had I just smiled dreamily at the screen, one of them -- male, White, Californian -- said that the episode just "didn't work" for him; that it "didn't feel like Star Trek."

Of course I asked whether he didn't like the Klingons (because I sure didn't like the undertones), but he said that they were okay -- that Michael and Phillippa together were the problem. Didn't feel like the captain and first officer.

And I was flabbergasted. I'm a fan, but I'm not deluded enough that the pilot couldn't be improved upon. Still to me, that means MORE BURNHAM AND GEORGIOU, not less. I thought about the two of them and wondered whether they work for me as the child of a less casual culture: one that has a formal form of address (much like "usted" and "ustedes" in Spanish) as well as strong but specific bonds between people on different levels of authority, with boundaries that are quietly understood. I found Burnham and Georgiou resounding based on my experience, my background. But perhaps it doesn't work equally well on other viewers with, well, other backgrounds?

Comments

[lizbee]

I thought about the two of them and wondered whether they work for me as the child of a less casual culture: one that has a formal form of address (much like "usted" and "ustedes" in Spanish) as well as strong but specific bonds between people on different levels of authority, with boundaries that are quietly understood. I found Burnham and Georgiou resounding based on my experience, my background.

I think this is a really interesting perspective from which to analyse the Burnham-Georgiou relationship! But in the case of your friend, I'm sorry to say I think you might be being too kind. In my experience, even guys I normally respect and agree with just struggled to enjoy watching two women of colour interact as professionals and mentor/protege, and I still can't come up with a good reason beyond sexism and racism. Not of the extreme alt-right "Lorca was the real hero all along" type, but the more insidious "I am uncomfortable when we are not about me?" way.

[monanotlisa]

Eheheh, that last birb-y quotation... You’re probably right. It’d just be so sad.

[lizbee]

I was disappointed by a lot of male nerd friends last year. Though one wound up doing a lot of soul searching and came out of it Still A Good Egg.

[monanotlisa]

Glad you got one of those — in real life I can’t think of one.

Mostly the above happening makes me sad because factually this will block my best friend from watching a show I know with 100% certainty she will love...

[kore]

the extreme alt-right "Lorca was the real hero all along" type

Oh God that pissed me off so bad. NO, SORRY, HE'S THE VILLAIN. The actor said he was one of the great Star Trek villains! He relished playing the role! The one embodying Starfleet values was always Philippa and, through her, Michael. It was amazing how much that was 'The World Turn'd Upside-Down' for so many white male viewers.

[monanotlisa]

HOMG, Jason himself has stated Lorca’s the villain, and also dead.

But, can’t fight delusions, I suppose?

[kore]

But he's the white guy! Whaddaya mean the white guy isn't the hero??

See also: Kylo Ren.

[jadelennox]

Not of the extreme alt-right "Lorca was the real hero all along"

Wait, WHAT?

[lizbee]

An actual opinion I saw around places! Most notably on a conservative media site, and I knew I shouldn't have followed the link, but sometimes I make bad choices.

But in masculine-heavy spaces like Reddit, there was a fair bit of "I knew Lorca was a good captain when he told Michael that universal law was for lackeys, and I'd follow him to the ends of the earth if those damn SJWs hadn't tried to tell us he was a villain".

I assume these are the same people unironically wearing Make the Empire Glorious Again shirts.

[monanotlisa]

This is why we can’t have nice things.

[kore]

Ahahahaha yeah that was me the first time I visited the Disco reddit. They were SO SURE he would redeem himself, or Michael would fuck up somehow and he would rescue her, or he had been good all along, &c &c. It was freaky.

(I also got the impression many of those same white dudes were deeply freaked out by the canon gay male couple.)

[sabotabby]

White, Canadian, female here—they totally worked for me, and the show's biggest flaw after the Klingons (which I couldn't stand) was that there wasn't more of them together. It was actually the most Star Trekky thing about the show, which tends to depict a strictish military hierarchy (that gets subverted all the time) in a Federation that has entirely abolished the class system. If power dynamics were to be renegotiated in a healthier way, it may end up looking like something like Michael and Phillippa at the beginning of the episode.

I did notice that their dynamic is something super weird in science fiction, though, albeit not in other genres where there tend to be more women. Granted I've just had my coffee, but how many other crews can you think of—main crews, not some other starship that's in one episode—where there's both a female captain and first officer? I can't think of any. Whereas I can think of several male-male ones, or male-female. Broadening it further, mentor-protege relationships are very seldom composed of two women.

So if one's main TV/film/book/comic experience is sci-fi—men don't tend to read literature written by women for some reason, where this kind of relationship is more prevalent—maybe it might seem weird?

Or your friend is sexist and/or racist.

[kore]

I did notice that their dynamic is something super weird in science fiction, though, albeit not in other genres where there tend to be more women. Granted I've just had my coffee, but how many other crews can you think of—main crews, not some other starship that's in one episode—where there's both a female captain and first officer? I can't think of any. Whereas I can think of several male-male ones, or male-female. Broadening it further, mentor-protege relationships are very seldom composed of two women.

Yeah, I think that's it. Star Trek has had a black captain with white support, a white female captain with male support (Seven isn't a first officer but IMAGINE IF SHE HAD BEEN) and white male captains with diverse support. Even in the unaired pilot, where "Number One" was a white woman. But where both the captain and the support are not just women but also not white -- yeah, that's gonna discombobulate some people who have grown up on, say, TNG.

[nenya_kanadka]

Yeah, Sisko and Chakotay were both men of colour, and Kira and Janeway were both women. (Was T'Pol Archer's first officer?) And of course there've been women and people of colour in secondary roles, even once in a while people who were both (B'Elanna Torres <3).

But this was the first time that both captain and XO were women, and the first time that neither of them was white. Made me real grouchy when Lorca was then the captain for most of the show, but then, of course, Michael was the real hero the whole time and then we got Evil Philippa (and the two of them plus Kat, Tilly, and L'Rell saving the day in the end), so. :D :D <3

[kore]

(YOUR ICON)

i>but then, of course, Michael was the real hero the whole time and then we got Evil Philippa (and the two of them plus Kat, Tilly, and L'Rell saving the day in the end), so. :D :D <3

YES, that was great!

And I will still tirelessly maintain that Not-Evil Philippa is the real spirit of Starfleet all along and the show spells it out in most of its eps that Michael is her true inheritor, so in that sense she's put against Lorca as well. Because LORCA IS THE VILLAIN (and what a good one he was too)

[nenya_kanadka]

You'd be surprised how often this icon comes I handy! 😂

Captain Pippa is 1000% the Starfleet hero we're meant to aspire towards here. ❤❤❤ And as much as I enjoy Evil Pippa I really neeeed some more flashbacks of Captain Georgiou or something next season. Waaantt.

(But also the ex-Emperor being highly entertaining and possibly slightly redeemable, too. Obviously. 😃)

[jadelennox]

If power dynamics were to be renegotiated in a healthier way, it may end up looking like something like Michael and Phillippa at the beginning of the episode.

Yes, this! A mentoring relationship that is appropriately distant, but clearly involves a professional kind of love and respect in both directions.

(I do find the Klingons unbearable, though)

[kore]

I was meh to "okay that's enough" on the Klingons, altho I did admire their lovely shiny gold interior decor. BUT L'RELL.

[tptigger]

I also find his reaction puzzling. The violence inherent in that episode (and most of the series) troubled TBQH, but the very beginning of that episode felt the most Star Trek to me until we got to episode 7. (Really, the whole thing felt like TV Trek vs AOS Trek, which says a lot about AOS when you find the reason behind Lorca's behavior), but those first two episodes? For THAT REASON?

I think someone has some unconscious bias they need to examine.

[monanotlisa]

Sigh. Yeah.

[4thofeleven]

I'm not sure I remember thinking it was an issue back in Vulcan Hello, but certainly throughout the season I did remember thinking that I didn't quite buy Burnham as a first officer/former first officer - she doesn't quite come across as confident or experienced enough for the job.

Of course, for most of the season, she's suffered a fairly major blow to her confidence, and we never actually see her commanding - we see more of Tilly giving orders! And there's more of an explicit mentor-protege relationship with Georgiou than any of the other first officers had with their captains.

[monanotlisa]

I think she’s easily confident enough for it — the experience I cannot gauge. It is clear she has a ton more theory than praxis...but that seems eminently normal to me.

[nenya_kanadka]

I really really want to see more of Michael in a command role in season 2, for all these reasons! I bought her as earnest and new to the role and very trying-to-still-be-Vulcan, and therefore not someone who shouted a lot or was terribly assertive. And yes a lot of theory and still new to the practice (and then shit went all to hell in Vulcan Hello). You could see some of her command style with things like her mentorship of Tilly, though, and her taking charge of the mission to set the devices/rescue Cornwell. I'd just love to see her back in a command role officially, with all the growth she's had over the first season. I'd love to see her coming into her own in that way.

[indiegal]

Oh my gosh I've just realised I'm actually Michael.

[nenya_kanadka]

I always figured you thought you were Tilly, but tbh, Michael definitely fits. 😍

[indiegal]

Ha in my head I'm Tilly but unfortunately I've never been that talented and I'm certainly not a cadet anymore! Tbh I'd be happy with either XD

[indiegal]

I agree with the majority of the comments here. That relationship was the most 'Star Trek'-y thing in the first half of the series, possibly until they got to the first away mission (in my head). It came across as realistic, natural and professional and a very healthy relationship borne of long experience and mutual affection.

I agree with previous posters who think unfortunately your friend may be experiencing what the rest of us get most of the time - the person on screen does not look exactly like me. This is however a good thing for him to be going through and hopefully might help him develop as a person!

[monanotlisa]

I wish they kept watching, but given his reaction it seems unlikely. Blah.

[kore]

(YOUR ICON.)

[indiegal]

Heee thanks I'm pretty new to DW so Disco features heavily in my icon range! I got it from nenya_kanadka who made about half my repertoire!

[nenya_kanadka]

Yeah, all of this! Hell, the scene on the desert planet in the beginning reminded me strongly of other Trek desert scenes (DS9 in season 7 with Sisko and Ezri looking for the lost Bajoran orb, and one of the TNG movies had something similar I think?). It made me smile immediately because of that, and then just the easy but respectful relationship between Michael and Philippa pulled me right in. I 100% bought Captain Georgiou as a Starfleet captain and kind of immediately wanted to sit at her feet and learn everything from her!

I can see someone being thrown by the focus being on the first officer (who is then demoted!) -- that's a new dynamic for a show that's traditionally been an ensemble focused more on the captain. But I do think a lot of the "WTF is this??" reactions from white male viewers must be because they're so used to having someone who looks like them be the focus, to the point where it feels weird if someone else is. "Where's the captain, where's the main character, where's the, you know, the white guy...?"

I know I have my own unconscious biases, and would never claim that as a white woman I don't ever run into a disconnect like that with characters of colour due to racism. But in this case I was like "WOMEN!!!" so much that that overrode anything else, so there was a lot less of a "not like me" to get past initially than maybe there would have been if I were also a guy? IDK.

[kore]

OMG, I hadn't thought of the desert stuff, but yeah. And there are certainly a lot of "Spock and Kirk are marooned" setups where they have to figure out what to do. That felt very Trek to me!

I can see someone being thrown by the focus being on the first officer (who is then demoted!) -- that's a new dynamic for a show that's traditionally been an ensemble focused more on the captain

Oh yeah. But then again the whole show was full of mirrors and reversals and surprises (Ash and Lorca's true identities, Evil Phil and Captain Killy, themes of betrayal and loyalty) so it made sense that the person who was supposedly disgraced and not 'worthy' of Starfleet would be the true hero. (I still think endgame is Michael's going to be a captain.)

But in this case I was like "WOMEN!!!" so much that that overrode anything else, so there was a lot less of a "not like me" to get past initially than maybe there would have been if I were also a guy?

That was totally my reaction too. I was just like OMG MICHAEL IS THE CENTER OF THE SHOW and that was enough. (And I sat through ALL of Voyager just because of Captain Janeway. Disco was a much better experience! lol)

[kore]

that Michael and Phillippa together were the problem. Didn't feel like the captain and first officer

OH MAN, IF WHITE DUDES THINK OST IS SOME KIND OF REALISTIC REPRESENTATION OF MILITARY LIFE....even the ranks are all mixed up! WTF!

They totally worked as wise mentor/sarky mentee for me, and for T too. They obviously had a great relationship. And I thought Philippa's drawing of the symbol which was seemingly aimless rambling around was a wonderful little moment totally 'worthy' of the OST. (I thought Kirk and Spock could almost have been swapped in no problem -- the leader doing something that looks impulsive and wrong, the Very Logical Person seeing oh yeah, this had a point, by the end.)

[monanotlisa]

I LOVED their “drawing” of the Starfleet symbol, and their interactions! Man, the camera panning out gave me the chills, in a delightful way.

[kore]

T and I had been really liking the show up until that moment, and right then I swear we were both thinking like, Yeah, this is gonna be a good series. And most of it was excellent!

[indiegal]

Yes! I actually hadn't spotted that parallel (how?!) but yes! And agreed, that moment was what made me go 'Yay I'm watching a new Star Trek series and I love it already!'

[ironed_orchid]

A couple of guys I know didn't like it at all in the beginning, but kept going, and now correctly believe it to be the best Trek ever.

I hope this happens for your friend. But if it doesn't, the "this is not about me" may be too strong with him.

[monanotlisa]

Oh, glad to hear!

I do think the season is so amazing they should keep watching.

I’ll suggest it to her again...

[lynnenne]

My brother is a Canadian, middle-aged white dude and he loves the series. Loves the new Star Wars movies, too. Maybe the fact that he has two teenaged daughters has something to do with it. I think it gives him hope that they might have a better future ahead of them than the trash fire we have now.

[kore]

My husband is a middle-aged white dude (grew up in the Midwest no less) and he loved the show, and the new Star Wars movies too, altho he's been corrupted by 25 years of marriage to me, heh. (I was the one who was so pissed at Han's death I didn't want to see TFA at first, and then all my friends were like NO GO SEE IT, and of course I loved it. So that kind of prepped me for TLJ, hah.)

[gatheringrivers]

Dude was just pissed there wasn't a white dude in the command string.

(i.e., not a surprise to a lot of us....)

[nenya_kanadka]

Going to read all the comments (knowing you guys they'll be awesome :D) but my first reaction is that Michael and Philippa worked really well for me and felt extremely Starfleet captain/first officer. The thing that was a bump in the road for me about the pilot was the whole mutiny/Philippa's death thing, not their vibe before that (which was excellent). It would have been interesting to see how I felt about their dynamic if it had continued through the whole season, but there wasn't anything about what we did get that struck me as "not Star Trek."

I'm a white Canadian woman raised in something of a countercultural/subcultural bubble, but pretty much still anglo-North-American, fwiw.

(My uncharitable thought is that I wonder if a lot of men don't find women in those roles "convincing" for ~reasons~, but IDK if that's the case here.)

*goes to read the rest of the comments*

[mekare]

Hey it's so good to see activity here again! Will check more regularly from now on.

child of a less casual culture:

I stumbled over this a bit. What culture do you mean? I'm from Germany and we also have a formal form of address for superiors/anone older than you (though where I'm living now it isn't used as much).

I didn't really notice anything strange about Michael and Philippa's relationship when I watched (for the first, second or third time). Did they use extra-polite language?

I found them convincing as captain and young first officer, as well as mentor/mentee. :-)

Btw my bf also really liked the first two episodes (as well as the rest of the season). He didn't have any trouble at all with a female command team.

[strangesistas_writings]

Late to the party on this one but I want to chime in because my sister and I were talking about this relationship recently. On my first viewing I liked Michael and Georgiou's relationship just fine, but on my second viewing their relationship confused me a bit and left me with mixed feelings.

They've worked together for years, Georgiou floats the idea of Michael getting her own command soon, but as soon as they disagree Georgiou seems to distrust Michael and suggest her desire to "shoot first may be driven by personal feelings." How do you not trust your XO enough to believe that her advice has legitimate value even if you're going to disregard it? The way that played out left a bad taste in my mouth.

I still really like Philippa and I wish we could have gotten more of their relationship and the two of them working together. As important as they ended up making Philippa to the narrative we needed a flashback episode focused around their relationship.

As for other things coming up in the thread Jason and Sonequa have great chemistry together and that makes me wish they'd made different choices for Lorca's character, but a lot of his fans like to magnify his importance. Which is fine in fic, I do it myself, but that isn't what happened in the show. *le sigh*