Here is your episode discussion post for Discovery 1x14: “The War Without, The War Within.”
Please be aware that there will be spoilery comments on this entry. As always, I'll be back later this evening to join in the party once I've had a chance to watch the episode, and if the conversation hasn't gotten too far without me I will add some discussion starters or other remarks behind a cut.
Guys, what do I even say here? Straight away Georgiou ordered Saru to his knees and then announced that she and Burnham had dined on Kelpien entrails the night before (that happened wayyyy sooner than I thought it would), then there was a strike team with more Andorians and Tellarites, and then once they'd secured the bridge they beamed over Cornwell and Sarek, who promptly got a previously-on download by mind-melding with Saru. Sarek and Georgiou has a "who's the best parent" contest about Burnham, Cornwell hunted out L'Rell and had a nice catch-up session including L'Rell saying Klingons won't ever stop now that they've had a taste of Federation blood (tell that to 200 years of future on-again-off-again-ness, L'Rell...). Georgiou is even creepier when she's watching Kat and Sarek and just smiling. We seeded a moon with space fungus. Tilly is the friend who literally won't give up on you even if you've committed actual murder (at least so long as you weren't the one committing it), and, gah, what do I even say about Ash's face. Sarek gave actual decent parental advice for once (I thought, at least), but Burnham (very justifiably) can't handle looking at Ash anymore and oh my god, he's so sad. They're both so sad, and it hurts me. And then Stamets is so sad, and so angry, and that hurts me, too. Everybody is so sad!
And then we go down the rabbit hole of Georgiou didn't tell Burnham the whole thing about how to bring the Klingons down because she knew she wouldn't be able to handle it, but Sarek is okay with it (because apparently Surak didn't have anything bad to say about genocide, or the Vulcans have managed to lose the thing with his actual writings again after all the work that Archer and T'Pol and T'Pau did in bringing it back) and hey, while we're on the subject, Archer and the Enterprise NX-O1 got a great name-check as the last Federation crew to set foot on Qo'noS.
Because that's where we're going. We're going to beam into a cavern on Qo'noS and scan for military targets with drones and then, I don't know, I missed the exact plan but I'm pretty sure it involved turning the planet into a husk of dust or something. And how are we going to do this? Cornwell and Sarek have decided to say that Georgiou didn't actually die at the Battle of the Binary Stars, and put Emperor Georgiou in her identity and her place and oh my god you guys this is a TERRIBLE IDEA, but all it took was the sight of the back of her head and I was flailing with joy and horror. Captain Georgiou is back, except she's not because she's Emperor Georgiou and she is terrifying still, even when she's almost pulling off being Captain Georgiou.
Next week is going to drive me absolutely insane. And then the wait until season 2 will do me in for good.
Please be aware that there will be spoilery comments on this entry. As always, I'll be back later this evening to join in the party once I've had a chance to watch the episode, and if the conversation hasn't gotten too far without me I will add some discussion starters or other remarks behind a cut.
Guys, what do I even say here? Straight away Georgiou ordered Saru to his knees and then announced that she and Burnham had dined on Kelpien entrails the night before (that happened wayyyy sooner than I thought it would), then there was a strike team with more Andorians and Tellarites, and then once they'd secured the bridge they beamed over Cornwell and Sarek, who promptly got a previously-on download by mind-melding with Saru. Sarek and Georgiou has a "who's the best parent" contest about Burnham, Cornwell hunted out L'Rell and had a nice catch-up session including L'Rell saying Klingons won't ever stop now that they've had a taste of Federation blood (tell that to 200 years of future on-again-off-again-ness, L'Rell...). Georgiou is even creepier when she's watching Kat and Sarek and just smiling. We seeded a moon with space fungus. Tilly is the friend who literally won't give up on you even if you've committed actual murder (at least so long as you weren't the one committing it), and, gah, what do I even say about Ash's face. Sarek gave actual decent parental advice for once (I thought, at least), but Burnham (very justifiably) can't handle looking at Ash anymore and oh my god, he's so sad. They're both so sad, and it hurts me. And then Stamets is so sad, and so angry, and that hurts me, too. Everybody is so sad!
And then we go down the rabbit hole of Georgiou didn't tell Burnham the whole thing about how to bring the Klingons down because she knew she wouldn't be able to handle it, but Sarek is okay with it (because apparently Surak didn't have anything bad to say about genocide, or the Vulcans have managed to lose the thing with his actual writings again after all the work that Archer and T'Pol and T'Pau did in bringing it back) and hey, while we're on the subject, Archer and the Enterprise NX-O1 got a great name-check as the last Federation crew to set foot on Qo'noS.
Because that's where we're going. We're going to beam into a cavern on Qo'noS and scan for military targets with drones and then, I don't know, I missed the exact plan but I'm pretty sure it involved turning the planet into a husk of dust or something. And how are we going to do this? Cornwell and Sarek have decided to say that Georgiou didn't actually die at the Battle of the Binary Stars, and put Emperor Georgiou in her identity and her place and oh my god you guys this is a TERRIBLE IDEA, but all it took was the sight of the back of her head and I was flailing with joy and horror. Captain Georgiou is back, except she's not because she's Emperor Georgiou and she is terrifying still, even when she's almost pulling off being Captain Georgiou.
Next week is going to drive me absolutely insane. And then the wait until season 2 will do me in for good.
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Date: 2018-02-05 02:06 am (UTC)no subject
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Date: 2018-02-05 02:49 am (UTC)Disco on Discovery https://twitter.com/CenterWillHold/status/958932052308455425
Producer/director having A Moment and being photobombed by JI https://twitter.com/CenterWillHold/status/958454935082868736
Director cuddles up to Emperor Pippa https://twitter.com/karterhol/status/958370195814301696
Michael looking awesome and beautiful https://twitter.com/karterhol/status/958368937414029312
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Date: 2018-02-05 03:13 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-02-10 10:18 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-02-05 02:51 am (UTC)Also wanted to cry at the look on Tyler's face. Every look on his face, this episode. I mean, yes, I can understand that it would be hard to look at him and not remember his expression when he was strangling me, if such a thing had happened to me which fortunately it has not, but I also want to give him a hug, a nice warm blanket, some hot chocolate, and, like, thirty kittens or puppies or both.
I was somewhat surprised that their authority on Qo'nos was Mirror-Georgiou and not, you know, the actual Klingon they have in the brig or the guy who has all of an actual Klingon's memories.
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Date: 2018-02-05 03:08 am (UTC)Ohhhhhhmygod same. HIS FACE. HIS POOR LITTLE FACE.
I was somewhat surprised that their authority on Qo'nos was Mirror-Georgiou and not, you know, the actual Klingon they have in the brig or the guy who has all of an actual Klingon's memories.
Well, it's not so much "authority on Qo'noS" "authority on blowing the shit out of Qo'noS," so I guess that makes a degree of sense. Also it's likely that they wouldn't feel in a position to trust either L'Rell or Tyler at this point.
Also, y'know, plot device. A plot device that toooootally worked on me, at least! I totally freaked out when I saw the back of Georgiou's head and realized what they'd done, and seeing her actually looking like her again but still very visibly NOT being her... AAAAAAAHHHHHHH.
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Date: 2018-02-05 03:01 am (UTC)Also, forced mind melds are not cool. I’m having flashbacks to Spock and Valeris.
P.S. I have positive thoughts, this is just what came first.
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Date: 2018-02-05 03:12 am (UTC)The forced mind-meld, though, yeah. That was scary shit. Sarek always has been a bit of a "desperate times, desperate measures" kind of guy, and this definitely continued that.
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From:Positive comments
Date: 2018-02-05 03:28 am (UTC)Cornwell is the ultimate survivor. If Earth is wiped out, she will rule the cockroaches.
Yay, Saru found out about the Kelpian dinner and his friendship with Michael is still intact. I'm crossing my fingers that they'll switch from bickering siblings to siblings who usually get along. Then, they'll go stargazing together with Georgiou's telescope.
Am I the only one who's worried Georgiou might end up ruling the Klingons herself?
Next week: Burnham's mutiny, part two.
Re: Positive comments
Date: 2018-02-05 03:39 am (UTC)YES PLEASE
Then, they'll go stargazing together with Georgiou's telescope.
....I might be lowkey shipping it
Am I the only one who's worried Georgiou might end up ruling the Klingons herself?
The Klingons might also be worried!
Next week: Burnham's mutiny, part two.
....ya know, I was so sure all along that we'd have the mirror version of Burnham mutineering (sp) against Georgiou, with her rebelling against Lorca instead and the crew supporting her.
BUT NOW IT MIGHT BE AN ACTUAL MUTINY AGAINST THE MIRROR VERSION OF GEORGIOU. DON'T DO ME LIKE THAT, SHOW.
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From:Where's my Saru icon?
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From:JFC this week is Bad Life Choices Theatre
Date: 2018-02-05 04:27 am (UTC)"EM. PEROR."
"The truth is I just couldn't watch her die again, Saru."
"Nobody else could have done what you did on that Terran flagship." Michael/Saru BFFFFFFFS
"You think that's the worst, then....they start shaving down the tips of your fingers." LIEUTENANT BAMBIIIIIII
(Shazad Latif is fucking breaking my heart. OMG.)
"I will not take your freedom." How the fuck is Doug Jones acting like that through like ninety pounds of makeup?
ADMIRAL KAT IS LOADED FOR /BEAR/ LORCA
Emperor Pippa thinks Primeverse sucks. Can we blame her?
God, that scene between Paul and Ash was like a gutpunch.
OMG TILLY, WHAT A GREATHEART. -- Spousal overunit said "'Well he is kinda cute!'" as cyborg crewmember before her flirty "Welcome back." Awww.
Jayne Brook is fucking killing it this ep. Her "No" was amazing. Captain Saru continues to be, well, captainly!
....that scene between Kat and L'Rell was super gay. HOW can the show give me so much femslash?? It is amazing. -- Also how awesome is it that the Federation and Klingon philosophies are being talked out between two women?
Emperor Georgiou is beautiful and dangerous and irresistible, like fire. ("Let me tell you, daughter who is not my daughter..." I SHRIEKED)
"Specialist Burnham's intel," you mean the INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS ONE WOMAN WAR MACHINE? RIGHT
"What if I could show you how to bring them to their knees....once and for all? Your species is facing annihilation. Isn't it logical to consider all options?" BAD IDEA BAD IDEA BAD IDEA BAD IDEA
SAREK, YOU ARE STILL THE WORST AT PARENTING. WTF.
And a great scene between Tilly and Michael! -- ARGH, TILLY, YOU'RE BEING PUSHY
Michael visits Not-Ash: "Oh, is this going to be another scene that rips our hearts out and stomps them into the floor? GREAT"
Sonequa Martin-Green, once again the heart and soul and MVP actor. God I was crying. I also liked that Michael doesn't have to FIX Ash. It's not fair, she shouldn't have to. Although he does still love her and I loved the romance. AUGH.
OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD THAT IS SUCH A BAD IDEA. OMG. EMPEROR PIPPA'S FACE. (poor Saru looks like he thinks he's going to be next on the menu....)
Re: JFC this week is Bad Life Choices Theatre
Date: 2018-02-05 05:39 am (UTC)Because that's what he does. That man is a god when it comes to acting through prosthetics, that's what his whole career has been about, and he is so freaking good at it.
....that scene between Kat and L'Rell was super gay. HOW can the show give me so much femslash??
I KNOW, RIGHT? It's amazing how much femslash a show can have when, y'know, it has more than one or two female characters and they actually have scenes together!
Emperor Georgiou is beautiful and dangerous and irresistible, like fire. ("Let me tell you, daughter who is not my daughter..." I SHRIEKED)
She so is, to all of that. Terrifying and beautiful and amazing and so very bad.
Sonequa and Shazad and Doug and Jayne and of course Michelle and let's not forget the two Marys -- they are all amazing and I love all of them so much and I want to watch all of them in this forever. I don't want anyone to go away. Ever. *flails*
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From:no subject
Date: 2018-02-05 04:32 am (UTC)SUCH A BAD, WONDERFUL, TERRIBLE, TERRIFYING, AWESOME IDEA
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Date: 2018-02-05 05:43 am (UTC)Sonequa Martin-Green, once again the heart and soul and MVP actor. God I was crying. I also liked that Michael doesn't have to FIX Ash. It's not fair, she shouldn't have to. Although he does still love her and I loved the romance. AUGH.
I am SO FREAKING MESSED UP on this, because on the one hand, yes, absolutely it is NOT Michael's job to fix Ash. It's 100% fair for her to say "You know what, I can't handle this, I'm still dealing with my own issues, this is not my job, and you lied and said you would tell me if you couldn't handle it and you didn't and that meant a lot of REALLY terrible things happened." She is 100% right to say all of that. And I get that she dealt with what she did almost entirely on her own (she DID have Tilly, at least, but still). And it's totally fair to say "You need to work through this on your own."
But... I am weak and I've loved Ash since the minute he appeared, and I've loved Burnham from the first second I saw her, and I love Stamets, too, and it makes me horribly, horribly sad that everyone is so sad right now and I'm afraid they're not going to be happy again, at least not the way they were.
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From:tl;dr strikes again
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Date: 2018-02-05 06:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-02-05 09:56 am (UTC)1) "On your knees, slave"
and
2) Kat beaming in with a gun
and
3) Kat BEING CONCERNED ABOUT LORCA
Yeah, this episode is going to DO ME IN, I can tell already
(christ not even getting started on Lieutenant Bambi)
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Date: 2018-02-05 05:18 pm (UTC)I had an honest-to-god "Well, that escalated quickly" moment there. And then again when Kat beamed in with the gun.
And then - I forgot this, but, y'all, I think a moment of silence is called for on behalf of Captain Killy and the Mirror!Discovery. Not a long moment, mind, but... boy must their last few moments have been confusing.
(christ not even getting started on Lieutenant Bambi)
TELL ME ABOUT IT.
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Date: 2018-02-05 10:02 am (UTC)KAT GETS TO BE ANGRY
KAT SHOOTS THE FUCK OUT OF HIS FORTUNE COOKIES
...KAT THOUGHT THEY WERE ALL DEAD
this glorious Katrina Cornwell h/c ♥ 4ever
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Date: 2018-02-05 06:10 pm (UTC)SHE AND SAREK ARE MAKING BAD DECISONS FOR SURE THOUGH.
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Date: 2018-02-05 10:28 am (UTC)LAST HOPE BASE GO BOOM
Kat barely holding it together AND THEREFORE
GOES TO SEE L'RELL
*screaming*
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Date: 2018-02-05 05:19 pm (UTC)GOES TO SEE L'RELL
YOU CAN IMAGINE HOW PLEASED I WAS BOTH BY THIS AND BY L'RELL'S "YOU'RE ALIVE!"
How is it possible that THIS is the potential pairing that is NOT breaking my heart all the time? HOW? HOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE?
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Date: 2018-02-05 10:29 am (UTC)KATRINAAAAA INTENSIFIES
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Date: 2018-02-05 10:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-02-05 05:28 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2018-02-05 11:02 am (UTC)i no longer can anything
oh my god :D
(Michelle Yeoh's "I have a secret" face is EVERYTHING)
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Date: 2018-02-06 06:17 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-02-05 11:05 am (UTC)"It's the middle of the night"
"I have a proposal"
"....not that kind, we both want to bang my space not-mom, not each other"
Kat's face: "At this point? I'd do you"
(guys I'm spamming, I'm so sorry, I'm leaving these comments from the Recent Entries page to avoid spoilers)
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Date: 2018-02-05 12:11 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2018-02-05 11:35 am (UTC)KAT no!
....oh my god.
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Date: 2018-02-05 01:07 pm (UTC)(Saru and Michael sussed it, right?)
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From:Can we talk about Tilly and Stamets and Voq/Tyler/what for a second
Date: 2018-02-05 01:47 pm (UTC)Damnit, Tilly what are you doing trusting him? I mean, she explained herself to Michael sorta, but just... how? I do not grok. Yes, Voq was responsible for Culber, for assaulting Michael, for (no wait that's the sappy-ass fic I'm writing, never mind), but it's his body? Ash is just kind of a construct? I'm not clear on what Lorell did but this whole thing is weird and....
Just damnit Tilly.
But half the mess hall following suit after she moved to sit with him was super cool and it's like "my little leader". I don't think I can back this play.
And then Stamets... I'm kind mad Anthony Rapp brought this clip to the view, because it worked a hell of a lot better in context, but... OMG. That. Was. Perfect.
Because he didn't forgive him, per se, nor should he, IMHO, but rather than screaming or railing or having a "throw down" (jeez, Matt Mira this is Star Trek not Firefly), he just.... kind of made sure Ash was feeling guilty and threw him a back handed compliment? "I guess you might still be human". Um... Yeah, I kinda cheered.
And the "let the spores be wild" and Tilly read all the research beyond what they were actually doing because she's a Good Scientist and Super Smart and Ravenclaw, but they nixed it because Straal... and...
The fungi planet. Are they going to go back for more spores and find Hugh?
Does anyone remember the origins of the Genesis planet? I don't think I've watched The Search for Spock since I was a Tiny Thing but I was getting vibes? Although, since it's been a long time they may be The Vibes of Wishful Thinking.
And Cornwall: I'd say congratulations, Lt., but there's still a lot of work to do."
*sighs* Cornwall, you're a psychologist, why do you not know how to people?
Re: Can we talk about Tilly and Stamets and Voq/Tyler/what for a second
Date: 2018-02-05 06:34 pm (UTC)Re: Can we talk about Tilly and Stamets and Voq/Tyler/what for a second
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From:Kat Cornwell is not okay, and it's kind of amazing
Date: 2018-02-05 10:25 pm (UTC)- war
- concern about her buddy Lorca
- attacked by Lorca in bed
- a few hours later: KLINGON PRISONER
- serious injuries
- rescue
- straight from hospital, I guess by the timeline, to view the wreckage of Discovery
- more war, losing badly
She shouldn't be in command, for all the reasons she thought Lorca shouldn't be in command! She's freezing up on the bridge, drinking Lorca's whiskey alone in her quarters, and, oh yeah, putting Discovery back in the hands of a Terran infiltrator, while actively deceiving the crew, so said infiltrator can commit an atrocity on her behalf.
Last week, we talked about how Saru reclaimed Discovery from Lorca, and how Lorca had corrupted the crew with his Terran ideology. Now we see he's done the same to Kat, to an extent, although I also think she has the PTSD plot we thought Lorca was getting.
(I'm like ... on the one hand, I don't want Kat to be responsible for war crimes, even if she shares that guilt with Sarek and the Federation Council. On the other hand, I sure do love Delenn an awful lot, so I'm kind of here for it.)
The following people are also Not Okay And Need Help:
- Ash Tyler
- Sarek
- Paul Stamets
And the following people are Not Okay But Have A Good Support Network And Will Get There:
- Michael Burnham
- Saru
- aka Team We're Gonna Have To Mutiny Again, Right? Oh Man, If This Keeps Up It's Gonna Turn Into A Thing
Also, People Who Transcend Mere Concepts of Okayness but Maybe Need Some Comfort Food and a Nap:
- ex-Emperor Georgiou
- Tilly
Re: Kat Cornwell is not okay, and it's kind of amazing
Date: 2018-02-05 10:37 pm (UTC)Team We're Gonna Have To Mutiny Again, Right? Oh Man, If This Keeps Up It's Gonna Turn Into A Thing
"And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in singing a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. They may think it's an organization...."
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From:no subject
Date: 2018-02-06 01:17 am (UTC)So this episode for me was composed of about--
2/3 Admiral Kat tromping all over the ship admiralling like hell
1/3 Emperor Georgiou's FACE
1/4 Michael Burnham's heartbreak on three planes at the same time
1/2 my utter terror for their moral centres and their soul
17/5ths the utter destruction of the ability to do math because SWEET JESUS
And THEN I saw the back of Georgiou's head.
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Date: 2018-02-10 10:16 am (UTC)announced that she and Burnham had dined on Kelpien entrails the night before (that happened wayyyy sooner than I thought it would
Oh definitely! I thought they’d draw out the tension of that reveal a lot more. On the other hand, with the war as it went they had enough tension material there.
Sarek and Georgiou has a "who's the best parent" contest
Urgh the scene I hadn’t even known I needed like BURNING. So many layers, I really need to watch again to properly appreciate it.
I had so been hoping for another Kat L’Rell scene and it didn’t disappoint.
Georgiou is even creepier when she's watching Kat and Sarek and just smiling.
The WATCHING, dear lord, the watching, waiting, planning, careful testing of the waters and absolute confidence... it made me shiver. There’ll definitely be a big THING from Georgiou next episode.
Tilly was awesomely brave.
sad. They're both so sad, and it hurts me. And then Stamets is so sad, and so angry, and that hurts me, too. Everybody is so sad!
The two scenes that broke me. Stamet’s crazy eyes on the verge of violence or crying or both. It was such a short scene but very very effective. (Someone said on After Trek that Stamets from season 1definitely would have punched Ash and I agree)
Ash and Michael. That scene was physically painful to watch. Absolutely understandable from both sides, Ash needs someone to support him while he finds himself (again) and Michael can’t be the only one giving in the relationship right now (and has the memories of betrayal to deal with). Argh WHY writers, WHY do you give us romance that was so sweet and different and then let it all go to HELL?!
oh my god you guys this is a TERRIBLE IDEA, but all it took was the sight of the back of her head and I was flailing with joy and horror. Captain Georgiou is back, except she's not because she's Emperor Georgiou and she is terrifying still, even when she's almost pulling off being Captain Georgiou.
Terrible terrible idea! I was as blindsided by it as Michael and Saru. It’s even worse than the mirror verse episodes because we know she is supposed to be evil. But this? Georgiou playing at being Philippa, making snide remakrs an Saru and Michael aaaaaarrrgg. Poor bridge crew who aren’t in the know!!!! How traumatising will this get for them when it all goes wrong?
Please please we need something in this comm to tide us over during the hiatus. Not necessarily immediately because we’ll need time to process the finale I’m sure but soon? Space_swap is one thing but maybe have a little prompt meme or I don’t know. Something fluffy???
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Date: 2018-02-10 02:32 pm (UTC)Because they feed on our pain?
Please please we need something in this comm to tide us over during the hiatus. Not necessarily immediately because we’ll need time to process the finale I’m sure but soon? Space_swap is one thing but maybe have a little prompt meme or I don’t know. Something fluffy???
I'm working on the most ridiculously sappy fic in the history of ever if that helps? But a prompt meme sounds fun. (Are my gen prompts welcome? :)
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Date: 2018-02-11 08:50 am (UTC)Yeah, but he only did it to deflect from her reasonable concerns about him, so he still sucks. Like, would it kill him to be honest?
Straight away Georgiou ordered Saru to his knees and then announced that she and Burnham had dined on Kelpien entrails the night before (that happened wayyyy sooner than I thought it would)
The first of many, many extremely awkward meet-and-greets. I loved it.
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Date: 2018-02-11 09:04 am (UTC)(no subject)
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